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Class balancing - Forum
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Class balancing
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 4:32 PM | Message # 1 |
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| What is your idea about adding 1% handicap for FZR/XRR (may be 2% for FZR and 1% for XRR:) Don't think it is a selfish request from an FXR driver  But the fact that one racer is driving an FXR at its absolute limit and an above average FZR dirver overtakes (passes) him just 'coz of top end speed is weird. If we do this balancing then it will automatically find a solution for another problem which another user has talked about, namely fastest lap in each car. Because with this handicap all 3 cars will be closer, so a fast lap is really a fast lap regardless of car. This idea is already in use in Super GT series. FZR has 1%+10 kg handicap. And since we use short races, there is no chance for FXR to balance its slowness by better fuel economy and lesser tire wear.
But this coin has another side.. If FZR/XRR is given handicap then there is no incentive for people to drive them. I think now the fact that FZR/XRR is more sensitive and delicate to handle than FXR is compensated by them being faster than FXR. Hence there is some amount of evenness. If we make 1% handicap, we will drive away new players from chosing FZR/XRR. But having said that, between the expert drivers, a 1% handicap for FZR/XRR may be make racing more closer and exciting. What are your thoughts?
PS: Please don't think this post is related to the race between Arobyte and Geheimrat. Both drivers are geniuses. Arobyte will still be faster than most of us even if we give 5% restriction to his FZR  But take my example. I have been driving FXR for 8000 laps. I drive it the best I could and get a first split of 45.21. But one day I drive an FZR for the first time and without even trying I get a 45.4 split. I was surprised how inherently fast FZR is.
Message edited by rageshgr - Friday, 2011-10-21, 4:34 PM |
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| [SMOKE] | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:15 PM | Message # 2 |
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| I think that having the faster car is the reward for those manly dudes who can tame those crazy tempermental rides. I can drive the FZR, but not at it's limits, I'm faster in the FXR because I can approach it's limits. For those who get upset by being overpowered - I think they usuallly go to a server that limits car selection to just one type.
But then they allways come back when they realise that too much of the action is at the server that gives freedom - becuase there are so many different type of drivers out there. Surprisingly enough - some of the dudes that can master those difficult rides aren't really driving geniuses like I imagine them to be, some of them suck at the easier cars - yet for some reason they're great at the harder cars, not because of amazing skill and hard work - but because their natural approach to racing lends itself to that sort of car without them even trying hard. And to them - the FZR is the easy car, and the FXR is the hard car - so how fortunate for them that they get the speed also, without having to work for it. Here's an odd example of what I mean: I can draw portraits of people very well, I can copy things I see into artwork in a simple traditional way. However, I'm not good at characature or creative artwork. That requires a different talent. Now the guy who's good at creating visually striking original artwork may be lousy at what I do - realistic copies. Both of us are artists, but we both see art in a different way, we both have our strenghts and weaknesses. The one's to fear are those who can do it all - the drivers who excell in any car.
Message edited by [SMOKE] - Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:32 PM |
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:33 PM | Message # 3 |
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| Quote (|SMOKE|) And to them - the FZR is the easy car, and the FXR is the hard car - so how fortunate for them that they get the speed also, without having to work for it.
You have hit the nail with this one, that is really fortunate. I too have heard some ppl complain that FXR is too hard to drive etc etc, because as u said their style suits the RWD kind of cars were there is power oversteer on turn in, unlike FXR where there is power understeer on turn in for instance.
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| [SMOKE] | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:45 PM | Message # 4 |
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| I know this post is about "Class balancing" and not trying to understand the mystery of the variety of craft in the racing world. However, I wanted to chime-in my 2 cents on it in a way that goes to the root of the problem. As far as actually handicapping cars - What would you do about all the guys who are upset by this course of action? I think there would have to be a consensus, which you'd never get because there are too many FZR guys in the vote. Also, it may not be the best approach anyways because history teaches that when you try to place restrictions on class - like slavery, or women not having the right to vote for example, it just doesn't work out. It would be like if we were debating whether or not to handicap the black guys in basketball because they're too good. Well... maybe not, I mean: All cars are not created equal. So my example is incorrect. For instance - you wouldn't have an FBM vs an XFG would you? I see your point.
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:52 PM | Message # 5 |
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| Yeah, actually I myself am split as to whether handicap will be good or not, just like you. On one side I can say the difficulty vs speed cancels each other out in GTR. But once you learn the car, then it becomes unequal. An expert FZR driver will always be faster than an expert FXR driver. And another point I have is, since anyone can win a race in an FZR if they do a low 1:41.xx for example, there is no incentive for them to push and explore the limits of FZR. For example there are many FXR drivers who have Alien FXR license. But hardly any who has Alien FZR license. Even Uber FZR racers are rare. It should be because of the fact that they are not driven to push FZR to its limit since it is already the fastest.
Message edited by rageshgr - Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:52 PM |
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| [SMOKE] | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:55 PM | Message # 6 |
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| I guess maybe the reason that this has been allowed to go on is because it's not a huge apparent advantage - and since it's not so noticable, it has allways been tolerated on the grounds that "Well they may be faster.., but their car is harder to drive". However, that is a poor argument isn't it? Afterall, so long as the car is clocking better laptimes - I don't think it matters much that it was hard to drive along the way, lol. Also, as we've discussed prior, there are plenty of those which find those cars rather easy to control. So where's the drawback to the advantage for them? Now we see why Super GT has allready been forced to act on such discrepancies. I hear your concern well my friend.
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 6:58 PM | Message # 7 |
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| Yeah exactly, now that we know that some people find FZR easier to drive, where is the compensating drawback? where is Mr. Even Steven?? :P and coming to ur basketball analogy, imagine this, both teams equally talented but you are free to use some shoes which have flubber in their soles, of course flubber is hard at first to learn with extra jump height and all, but after that its pure advantage :P and there is no turbo lag in FZR too 
Message edited by rageshgr - Friday, 2011-10-21, 7:01 PM |
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| [SMOKE] | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 7:36 PM | Message # 8 |
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| Awesome analogy with the flubber! You sir, have brightened my spirits this morning! 
Added (2011-10-21, 7:08 PM)
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I'm going out for a [SMOKE] brb. AFK-[SMOKE]BREAK-AFK
Added (2011-10-21, 7:26 PM)
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Okay, I'm back. Ya know - I could probably master the FR cars if I felt like it, but I've never driven any of them more than 2 or 3 times. To me.. if the car is difficult to control, that's not good. I mean if I built a car from scratch and everyone told me it was difficult to control - I would see that as a failure. The goal is to make a car that a guy can sit down in - and take off feeling like the car was built just with him in mind - it should do what he wants it to do. Rather than saying that he must "learn" the car, I think that the car should "learn" to be constructed in a way that it is intuitive to the inputs of the driver. So I've just enjoyed the marvels of the FXR. The guy who wants to drive a piece of junk just because it has more horse power is like the guy who drove the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak in Gran Turismo to win - they'd be in the wall at every corner, but they'd win because it was like a rocket on the straits.
Added (2011-10-21, 7:36 PM)
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And for those who will say: "You just say that because you're not able to drive the FR cars, you don't have the skill that us FR guys have." I will answer them: #1) Like I said, I've only driven the FR cars 2 or 3 times, so how do you know that I couldn't easily master it? The act of mastering a car that is unbalanced towards oversteer isn't rocket-science, I know that I could do it. #2) I have chosen at this time to be the underdog in the slower car and reach it's potential because to me - that's the joy of the art of racing. And if I spent all my time mastering the faster car and reaching it's potential - I would end up one of those guys who has an unfair advantage - which is what this post is about. #3) If and when I decide to begin mastery of the FR cars - it will be when I have mastered the underdog allready, meaning .20 or so away from the WR. And when that day comes I'm not sure I'll want to be given an unfair advantage over the competition because most of my competition will be about 2 seconds or worse behind me anyways. #4) I'm not saying I have an issue with FR cars, it's just that this class system thing that we've been discussing sorta makes the FR cars the bad guys in my opinion, and I'm a good guy at heart. heehee
Message edited by [SMOKE] - Saturday, 2011-10-22, 1:53 AM |
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 8:18 PM | Message # 9 |
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| hey what do you mean by FR? Front wheel drive? FZR and XRR are rear wheel. Or does FR mean something else?
Also quite strong words you have used there. I am not suggesting those who drive faster cars are ego centric punks, that require skills as well dude
Message edited by rageshgr - Friday, 2011-10-21, 8:21 PM |
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| SingleEnginePilot | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 9:47 PM | Message # 10 |
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| There are a few other weaknesses with FZR (at AS National) that really equal things out that should be mentioned:
#1 Off the line acceleration
#2 FXR handles better through turn (and you can brake alot later and accelerate a lot earlier)
#3 FXR doesn't spin when touching so much as a blade of grass (or hitting tire).
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 10:37 PM | Message # 11 |
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| Glad to hear from an FZR driver! yes 2 and 3 is what I meant when I said delicate and sensitive. I forgot about #1 yes, off the line poor you RWD guys, takes eons for the traction to hit, but hey by T1 you guys catch up Although #2 is a weakness, once u start the turn, the Porsche 911 like rear engine pendulum really helps the FZR and it coasts through the turn nicely. That said, its really is on the knife edge
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| SingleEnginePilot | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 10:46 PM | Message # 12 |
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| Hmm, I thought the FZR was a Nissan 350Z (that's why the default paint scheme says NISSAN all over it)?
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-21, 10:57 PM | Message # 13 |
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| Yes, but 3.6 liter flat with engine at the back? does n't that shout 911? But its rear look like a Ferrari 612 scaglietti
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| [SMOKE] | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-22, 1:30 AM | Message # 14 |
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| FR = Front engine Real wheel drive, MR = Mid engine Rear wheel drive, FF= Front engine Front wheel drive.
"quite strong words you have used there. I am not suggesting those who drive faster cars are ego centric punks, that require skills as well dude " you said.
In my 1st sentence in my first post I said: "I think that having the faster car is the reward for those manly dudes who can tame those crazy tempermental rides."
In other words - I do have respect for RWD racers and their skills. Sorry about the strong words, that wasn't directed at LFS guys so much as Gran Turismo guys I knew from back in the day that would choose the Suzuki Escudo car in order to win, even if they couldn't control it. I apologise if I said anything that offended anyone, I've removed the offensive remark from my old post. I guess I just got caught up in the spirit of your topic buddy. Sorry 
Message edited by [SMOKE] - Saturday, 2011-10-22, 1:56 AM |
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| rageshgr | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-22, 2:08 AM | Message # 15 |
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| hey no problem buddy, I know you mean, but lest someone gets sensitive about it, so was watching ur back
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| Sin | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-22, 2:24 AM | Message # 16 |
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| Quote (rageshgr) For example there are many FXR drivers who have Alien FXR license. But hardly any who has Alien FZR license. Even Uber FZR racers are rare.
24 people out of 7,428 have Alien licence in FXR at this time - so not that many imo
15 people out of 5,288 have Alien licence in FZR at this time - so again not that many imo
2 people out of 2,363 have Alien licence in XRR at this time - so yes hardly any - but this is due to people giving up on it because it takes a lot of skill and patience
86 people have Uber licence in FZR - so not that rare imo
This is because more people drive the FXR than any other GTR car on our server , so eventually they do get better/faster with it . all the licence times are proportionate with what is actually achievable with each of the cars - its down to the individual driver to learn there chosen GTR car totally before they will have a chance at a really fast time ... if i made it easier to achieve the higher licences there would be no challenge . i think you might have seen some of these as rare because a lot of the guys that got these times don't race on LFS much any more , which for me is the biggest problem because less people = less fun .
Quote (rageshgr) handicap for FZR/XRR
Personally i don't mind that these cars are faster in a straight line , the FXR makes up for it under braking and also cornering . yes i know the WR's are a second or so apart but for most people doing sprint races the difference in pace isn't too bad - some will say the FXR is "easy to drive" it takes "no skill" ... i say yes it is easy to drive but it takes a lot of skill to drive fast consistently lap after lap - plus for me i like being the underdog , FXR drivers aren't meant to beat FZR/XRR drivers so when we do its all the more sweeter 
 Team Member
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| rageshgr | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-22, 2:38 AM | Message # 17 |
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| Ah! I was wrong abt the Uber stats, and even Alien stats are very close 0.28% FZR aliens vs 0.3% FXR aliens. Yes, those people are not here, probably that is why I get a skewed picture of mostly Pro-FZR drivers winning against Uber FXR drivers etc.
Quote (Sin) f i made it easier to achieve the higher licences there would be no challenge
Yes I too enjoy the underdog status. When I see a FZR driver who has same laptime (even 0.2 s faster ) as me, I get confident that I will be much better against him in corners, it is because of top end power that he has same lap time as me
Quote (Sin) i say yes it is easy to drive but it takes a lot of skill to drive fast consistently lap after lap
Message edited by rageshgr - Saturday, 2011-10-22, 2:40 AM |
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| Sin | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-22, 2:45 AM | Message # 18 |
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| Quote (rageshgr) On a similar note, my point was if it was easier for an FZR to win a race than FXR there would be no challenge for FZR drivers and there would be no hope for FXR drivers (I mean drivers for same caliber)
This is why i made a GT2 server , but its rarely used ... most people don't want to drive a restricted car (however much the restriction is) , they want to get the most out of it that they can .
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| rageshgr | Date: Friday, 2011-10-28, 6:57 PM | Message # 19 |
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| Ah GT2 is cool, I like GT3 even more, In gt2/gt3 we can concentrate on more minute driving and refine skills when the cars are slower, and we have to perfect.
Added (2011-10-28, 6:57 PM)
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Quote (rageshgr) Yes, but 3.6 liter flat with engine at the back? does n't that shout 911?
Hey interestingly the lfs manual http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Cars also says the same
"FZ50 -RR Sports car resembling a Porsche 911 "
Message edited by rageshgr - Friday, 2011-10-28, 7:00 PM |
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| SingleEnginePilot | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-29, 3:17 PM | Message # 20 |
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| Hmmm... Looking at a 350z and comparing it to a Porche911 it seems the FZR may be a combination of the two. It seems to be the body style of 350z but the engine of a 911.
Look at this comparison I put together. 
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| rageshgr | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-29, 3:36 PM | Message # 21 |
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| good work mate! ya exactly, we both were right in the sense that it looks and styling (especially headlights - spot on!) like the 350Z, while the Rear engine, power and probably dynamics is like the 911. I think it is intentional because they have not licensed either cars to do an exact replica One thing I miss in LFS is real life cars. There are games where you have 30 of the most exotic supercars in the game but all of them handle the same (same = wheel barrow), then there is LFS which is so realistic but there are no marques and not too many glamorous cars, but hey I use the "none" view and sometimes cockpit so it is the handling that matters and that is where LFS scores
Message edited by rageshgr - Saturday, 2011-10-29, 3:38 PM |
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| Sin | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-29, 7:28 PM | Message # 22 |
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| Quote (SingleEnginePilot) Look at this comparison I put together.
A nice comparison there Frets , but heres a quote from the LFS manual:
FZ50 (FZ5) - RR Sports car resembling a Porsche 911
FZ50 GTR (FZR) - Race version of the FZ5
Mind you i guess as they never had the licence to do these cars for real using the word "resembling" covers them legally ... at least it gives people like us something to talk about 
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| rageshgr | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-29, 8:50 PM | Message # 23 |
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| Yes Sin, that is what I too quoted from lfsmanual in my original post , which confirmed that not only I, but many people think of the FZR as 911, so do many people like Frets think it resembles 350z, probably the FZR is a love child of Japanese design and German enginnering
Message edited by rageshgr - Saturday, 2011-10-29, 8:51 PM |
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| Adi | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-29, 9:04 PM | Message # 24 |
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| Yea, handicap XRR, it's so fast
sorry, had to post that
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| rageshgr | Date: Saturday, 2011-10-29, 9:16 PM | Message # 25 |
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| Yeah!
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